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07 October 2010 @ 12:40 pm
From the Daily Mail  
UK leads the industrialized world in violent crime. Ya'll need to stop selling knives or something...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html



Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union, it has been revealed.
Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.
The figures comes on the day new Home Secretary Alan Johnson makes his first major speech on crime, promising to be tough on loutish behaviour.


Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union, it has been revealed.
Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.
The figures comes on the day new Home Secretary Alan Johnson makes his first major speech on crime, promising to be tough on loutish behaviour.
The Tories said Labour had presided over a decade of spiralling violence.
In the decade following the party's election in 1997, the number of recorded violent attacks soared by 77 per cent to 1.158million - or more than two every minute.
The figures, compiled from reports released by the European Commission and United Nations, also show:

The UK has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU.
It has a higher homicide rate than most of our western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain.
The UK has the fifth highest robbery rate in the EU.
It has the fourth highest burglary rate and the highest absolute number of burglaries in the EU, with double the number of offences than recorded in Germany and France.
But it is the naming of Britain as the most violent country in the EU that is most shocking. The analysis is based on the number of crimes per 100,000 residents.
In the UK The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 92 and South Africa 1,609.
Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: 'This is a damning indictment of this government's comprehensive failure over more than a decade to tackle the deep rooted social problems in our society, and the knock on effect on crime and anti-social behaviour.
 
 
 
the adventures of Christine: Wesleycdaae on October 7th, 2010 04:54 pm (UTC)
You believe what you read in the Daily Mail?

The method of crime reporting here has been changed significantly in recent years. If there's a pub fight, involving a number of different offenses (carrying a knife, assault, etc), it used to be counted as one crime. Now the official figures report it as a number of separate offenses. This makes the crime figures seem to have leapt to a degree which does not reflect reality.

The British Crime Survey is unaffected by changes in reporting methods, and also includes crimes which aren't reported to the police, making it a much better source.

"Since peaking in 1995, BCS [British Crime Survey-measured] crime has fallen by 44 per cent, representing 8.4 million fewer crimes, with domestic burglary and vehicle crime falling by over a half (59% and 60% respectively) and violent crime falling by 43 per cent during this period. On the recorded crime side, both domestic burglary and theft of and from vehicles have continued to fall over the same period." (Crime in England and Wales: Quarterly Update)

The media frequently distorts the real figures. See many examples, with statistics and references: http://www.mediahell.org/crimeheadlines.htm
Marksunnydays4me on October 7th, 2010 08:29 pm (UTC)
The media frequently distorts the real figures. See many examples, with statistics and references:

The latest reference in that (assuming the goverment is being truthful) is over three years old.
DanGdan_g on October 7th, 2010 09:02 pm (UTC)
Its not just the government being truthful here... The Mail is also regularly distorting figures to make it seem shit.

Remember its a Murdoch enterprise, so consider it with the same banality and fear-mongering that you would the Fox Network.

No wait, your pro-gun aren't you? That makes you their target audience.
Marksunnydays4me on October 7th, 2010 09:14 pm (UTC)
Being pro-gun does not make one a monster. If you think that themn the goverment over their has succeded in making you a drone.
Especially when my goverment's foundation, our Bill of Rights; specifically says I have a right to own AND carry firearms.

I don't know if you guys have been brainwashed or if you're jealous.m One thing I do know is you've already lost your rights, so fighting to keep them is not an option. You have a much steeper hill to climb and that is getting your rights back.
Aarona_pawson on October 7th, 2010 09:26 pm (UTC)
That amendment referred specifically to a militia. It's even in the actual text.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Marksunnydays4me on October 7th, 2010 10:34 pm (UTC)
the People's RIGHT to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed

A militia is ALL of the males from 17 to 70 that are able bodied. This just went thru our Supreme Court and we won. Maybe you'd have to be American, or just read more to understand that the Foundingm Fathers feared Tyranny from our own goverment over foriegn battles. This is a taste of what we can buy over the internet.
http://www.jgsales.com/index.php/rifles/ak-pattern-rifles/cPath/209_214?osCsid=40b14ca11fda58dfbe742751b0b1a030

Plainly we are to have weapons/small arms to compare against police and goverment.

A few quotes from the Founding Fathers.

No free man shall be debarred the use of arms.
To disarm the People is the quickest way to enslave them.
Who are The People? They are all of the American body, save but for a few trusted public servants (president, ect).
the adventures of Christinecdaae on October 8th, 2010 02:59 pm (UTC)
That is irrelevant - the point is that it shows how the media regularly distorts the current (at the time) statistics in order to increase fear.

Furthermore the BCS is carried out by the British Market Research Bureau Limited, the oldest market research agency in the country, not by the government.

The Daily Mail is frankly notorious in the UK for its disregard for the truth and its scaremongering. As a source, it has about as much value as a piece of used toilet paper.
the adventures of Christinecdaae on October 7th, 2010 04:56 pm (UTC)
One also can't help wondering about the countries they left out (such as most of Europe, and the USA); and I am not amazed that their leading source, listed on the edge, is the Conservatives. No mention of the British Crime Survey for the UK figures!
Յուրա Հակոբովyurri on October 7th, 2010 05:05 pm (UTC)
Knives don't stab, people do.
Marksunnydays4me on October 7th, 2010 08:17 pm (UTC)
Knives don't stab, people do.

lol, amen!
Kortirion: Teakortirion on October 7th, 2010 05:25 pm (UTC)
Statistics, statistics and damned lies! It's more to do with the way figures are collated than fact.

A little while ago I had a friend visit from South Africa for the first time in 20+ years, and she was genuinely upset to be sitting in my living room, facing an open patio door onto the garden. She said she kept expecting thieves with guns or machetes to walk in - which is what would have happened in Johannesburg.

When the govt issue instructions as to what to do when confronted by armed robbers in your home - which the South African govt do - then we should be worried!
Marksunnydays4me on October 7th, 2010 08:25 pm (UTC)
You have instructions in the UK
When the govt issue instructions as to what to do when confronted by armed robbers in your home - which the South African govt do - then we should be worried!


http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/prosecution/householders.html

In the USA the only instructions we have is to blow their ass away.
MsWildthymeyuxonomei on October 7th, 2010 05:25 pm (UTC)
Oh. Okay, then.
DCradiantsoul on October 7th, 2010 06:19 pm (UTC)
I had almost forgot this community existed
Trialiatrialia on October 7th, 2010 08:42 pm (UTC)
...So apparently the US isn't an industrialised nation? :P

Seriously, don't believe what you read in the Daily Fail.
Marksunnydays4me on October 7th, 2010 09:17 pm (UTC)
So apparently the US isn't an industrialised nation? :P

If you read the whole thing the USA and South Africa are both addressed in there.
Debparanoiaclub on October 7th, 2010 09:32 pm (UTC)
I'd guess that its something to do with the way crime figures are reported (as someone states up there). I also find it very strange that Austria, Sweden and Belgium are so high up the list, they don't seem like your stereotypical violent crime hotspots!
Marksunnydays4me on October 7th, 2010 10:40 pm (UTC)
I tend to agree with you. It does seem odd.
not gay as in happy but queer as in fuck youmonvenin on October 8th, 2010 02:32 am (UTC)
The Daily Mail isn't generally famed for fact-filled articles, so I wouldn't tie knots in your handkerchief about it.
_illumina__illumina_ on October 8th, 2010 07:54 am (UTC)
The raison d'etre of the Daily Mail is to make people scared and angry. I think they succeeded here...
Marksunnydays4me on October 8th, 2010 06:35 pm (UTC)
Maybe they did succeed here. But there are 2 relevant factsbacking them up.
1-Crime in the UK is up.
2-People with murderous intent who can't get guns are resorting to kives. That kinda proves my point that gun bans only affect law abiding people.
MIO, anyone who can pass a background check should at minimum be able to have a handgun or shotgun to protect their family.
More than law, this is a basic human riht.
Mat Bowlesmatgb on October 9th, 2010 02:00 pm (UTC)
1) No, it's down. The method of police recording it is up, and reporting it is up, because substantial improvements have been made.

But the overall incidence of crime is significantly down over the last twenty years. That's an actual, provable, fact. The Daily Mail is less reliable than the National Enquirer.
Marksunnydays4me on October 9th, 2010 03:32 pm (UTC)
I notice you didn't address having a gun to protect your family as a basic human right.
Alexander / ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ -defender of mankind-: Vincentelkippy on October 9th, 2010 04:11 pm (UTC)
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights seems a more appropriate document when referring to human rights, than ensuring that people can have a completely unneccesary gun. After all the UK hasn't been enslaved just yet!

But if you are looking for it, there are better places to argue about gun rights than here.
Mat Bowlesmatgb on October 9th, 2010 08:03 pm (UTC)
Correct, I didn't, as that wasn't a point I was responding to.

You live in a country with a different basic set of definitions when it comes to basic human rights.

Given that it itself officially violates the most fundamental one on a regular basis, I won't take any lectures on how my country should choose to allow the right to self defence to be interpreted.

When your country ceases to be the biggest breacher of human rights within the OECD, then you can try and lecture others, in the meantime, fuck off.
Marksunnydays4me on October 9th, 2010 10:12 pm (UTC)
Don't deflect it on the OECD.

Being able to protect your family is a basic human right no matter where you are. I would not reside in ANY country that won't or can't recognize that obvious, basic truth.
_illumina__illumina_ on October 10th, 2010 03:07 pm (UTC)
If you're saying, as this implies, that you wouldn't want to live in the UK, then it rather begs the question why you are posting on the lj_uk comm?...
_illumina__illumina_ on October 10th, 2010 03:04 pm (UTC)
It's my personal opinion that the more people who have guns, the more dangerous it is for everyone. People who keep guns in their homes to 'protect' their families are frequently the same people who have accidents with guns, often fatal ones. It's also fairly well known that criminals find it quite easy to disarm an ordinary person, take their gun, and use it on them. I for one am VERY glad that it's not normal in the UK to keep guns in the home. People using knives for crime is bad enough without making access to firearms even easier.

Bear in mind that it's easy to say that only people who pass the background check can have a gun - once they've got it, it's easy for it to be stolen, or passed on to someone who would never pass the background check. Once guns are in the system, you can't control who uses them.
Marksunnydays4me on October 10th, 2010 05:23 pm (UTC)
Moreso than the obvious point, you expose a different school of thought than we have. Your school of thought is one of readily sacrificing your own basic rights for "the collective good".

That view is NOT prevalent over here in the USA. Over here you fight for your rights and never sacrifice them because of other people's mistakes. A 100 pound woman is equal to a 250 pound rapist IF she has a gun.
If someone is dumb enough to break into my home at night or anytime I am home; I do not cower under the bed. I grab my AK-47 and walk toward the danger confident I can cut down whatever danger is in my home.

I wouldn't sacrifice that for anyone or anything, least of all for the collective good. A solid 90% of murders by gun over here aare drug dealer on drug dealer. Good riddance to them.
_illumina__illumina_ on October 10th, 2010 05:40 pm (UTC)
I think I just have a different view of what my rights are, and it doesn't include blowing someone's head off just cos I feel a bit threatened by them.

As for a 100 pound woman with a gun being equal to a 250 pound man... like I say, it would be quite easy for him to disarm her, and then you have a 250pound rapist WITH A GUN. No thanks.

The general belief here is that if someone breaks into your home, you have the right to defend yourself from physical harm, but you don't have the right to take that person's life in doing so. No matter what the Daily Mail says.
Marksunnydays4me on October 11th, 2010 03:06 pm (UTC)
I didnn't say "blow someone's head off beccause they I feel "a bit threatened". I said because they were in my house having broken in.

We have VERY few home invasions or break ins at night here. They happen, but it is VERY, VERY, rare.

Onee difference in the two countries I plainly see is over here if someone breaks into your home or at night and you have every right to blow their heads off. Over in the UK it appears that you're not and that's one thing I prefer.
Our policy seems to work as we have very, very few at home break ins here.
_illumina__illumina_ on October 11th, 2010 03:48 pm (UTC)
Yeah, they're in your house, but it doesn't mean they're going to kill you! Of course breaking into houses and stealing stuff is a crime, and very unpleasant for the victim, but I still don't think you have the right to kill someone over it! And AFAIK, in the UK, if someone does break into your house, you do have the right to defend yourself "using reasonable force". The one guy who used a shot gun on burglars only got sent to prison because he SHOT THEM IN THE BACK as they were running away. Not cool.

I don't know what the relative statistics on break-ins are between the US and the UK, but I do know this - I've never (*touch wood*) been broken into. My parents haven't, none of my friends have that I'm aware of. In my experience, it just hasn't been an issue. Yeah, it happens, but not so often that most people over here feel the need to carry firearms!

Besides, that's why we have POLICE!

We're clearly never going to agree on this topic. You're glad you're allowed have a lethal weapon in your house; I'm just glad you don't live next door to me!


Edited at 2010-10-11 03:49 pm (UTC)